and then he began to berate the defense ministry. he said he had been robbing our people, spending so much on defense, you're scaring everybody else. that is giving them an excuse for an arms race. and i'll tell you comrades, if we let them get by with forcing us into an arms race, we are going to lose. exactly what president reagan was trying to do, tactically. and i would say, you know, people at the time, i know some of martin's colleagues wouldn't say well, reagan but didn't pay that much attention to details. his eyes would glaze over. throwaway numbers of missiles of warheads, and true. he didn't look at those things. he concentrate on the basic things. how do i understand this as a fellow? how do i convince him to do something that is actually in his own interest? because his current policies are not. so we spent much more time, and i think, talking to reagan about where gorbachev is coming from, what his pressures were. and, of course, one of the things that we needed to do was, in this process, to convince him we are not out